Thaksin Shinawatra（他信·西那瓦，中文名：丘达信 ）

In his own words

Oct 15th 2009
From Economist.com

This is the excerpted transcript（援引刊登于...） of an interview conducted with Mr Thaksin in Dubai, on October 5th 2009. Mr Thaksin discusses his criminal conviction, personal wealth and current business affairs as well as the mass movements roiling(煽动) Thailand and his view of the prospects for reconciliation（和解） or revolution

How has your conviction（罪名） by a Thai court affected your ability to travel and speak freely? Do you intend to challenge it?

Every country knows this is politically motivated（具有政治动机的）. The essence of the conviction（罪名本质） is not a criminal case in other countries. The detail of the conviction is very strange to the whole world…What bothers me is the government, which is the nominee（委任者） of the coup（政变） d’état, are trying to ask co-operation from different countries to not allow me to enter. They are trying to send the verdict（裁决） to Interpol（国际刑警组织）. This is politically motivated. It’s not a criminal offence. It’s a misdemeanor. They always lie. Even the content that they sent to Interpol is a lie.

The British government revoked（撤销废除） your visa.

Yes. I’m very disappointed by the mature-democracy countries. I was ousted（驱逐，剥夺） by a coup d’état. They should sympathise with governments that are toppled（倾向） by coup d’états. But they don’t sympathise. They thought that this government really comes from election. Yes, they come from election. But there are smaller parties that managed to become [the] government because of the help of military.

The conviction was for the sale of land to Khun Pojamarn （朴乍曼）[Mr Thaksin’s ex-wife] while you were the prime minister. The rule states that the spouse（配偶） of a state official cannot do this.

This is different because it’s a distressed asset under the rehabilitation office, which is an independent agency under the Bank of Thailand. They get rid of the distressed assets （不良资产）by an auction. The two other bidders were public companies（上市公司）. It’s very transparent（很清楚）. Before they award the contract to my wife, the legal department of BOT checked that no problem whatsoever. The National Anti-Corruption Commission at that time ruled that it was not related to Section 100 of the NACC rules. But after the military ousted me they set up a special committee that consists of all my political opponents（政敌）. They do it by arranging the court. The proceeding system of the court, the special section for politicians, is a one-court system.

This is the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders, the judicial body（司法机关） that convicted you last year?

Yes. It’s a one-court system. You cannot appeal（申诉）. Then they just follow the interrogation（审问） that was done by my political opponents.

That is one case. There are others against you, including the Shin Corp asset case（臣那越集团资产案）.

They try to allege so many cases and say this is the law of state. For example, the excise tax on telecoms. The state is not losing at all. The state gains more. Those that lost is TOT [the Telephone Organisation of Thailand]泰国电话组织. But TOT is 100%-owned by the ministry of finance. And TOT was about to divest（剥夺） the shares to the public. We take the money that TOT should take and go to excise department（国税部门）. The money is moving from left pocket to right pocket. In paying excise tax you must pay in advance. But paying dividends（红利） to TOT you must pay six months or one year. So they have more money to put in bank. So private sector lost. The government doesn’t lose…

If it had been a three-court system（三院）, I don’t worry at all. But it’s one court and it relied on the interrogation of the AEC [Asset Examination Commission], which consists of all my political opponents there. They’re not observing the rule of law in any interrogation. They threaten witnesses. They even bargain（买通） for those who come to witness. If you allege this, you will get this.

How do you know this?

They told me. The witnesses. They said it’s not fair. They feel very sad about what’s happening. So this is why I’m very upset that the mature-democracy countries are not concerned. It’s not like Zelaya [the ousted Honduran president]. Now the US is trying to put him back. I’m the first Thai prime minister in history that first time win half of parliament seats and second time win 76% of parliamentary seats and I was ousted because too popular.

Why do you think Thailand has become so politically unstable? What is the long-term solution?

The problem comes from the allegation that I’m not loyal to the monarchy（君主制）. That is the root cause. It comes from this paranoia（妄想者，偏执狂）. The people surrounding the palace, that perceive that they’re close to the palace, exercise the power which isn’t in the constitution（宪法）, because of the clout that they’re close to the monarchy. They thought that I’m not loyal to the monarchy. That’s not true. Look at what I’ve done for monarchy. I initiated the ceremony for His Majesty’s 60 years of ascension to the throne（君主）. I invite all the monarchs（君主） worldwide to attend. If I’m not loyal, why did I do this?

So where does this paranoia of you not being loyal come from? If you look back, is there something that you said or did that gave the wrong impression?

They thought I was too powerful because I got a too-strong mandate from the people. But isn’t that what democracy is about? Because you do a good job for the people, they trust you, they give you a mandate. When I had that result, they start to worry that I’m too powerful. Better get me out and make politics weak again. That is why we got the 2007 constitution.

You can see that we’re not a real democracy because we allow the people that are appointed by the elite（精英）, indirectly by elite, that elite can…sack（绑架） the government. The check-and-balance is between the people power and the elite.

Define this elite.

Those that do not have the power by constitution but use the clout of being close to the palace and instruct the government official not to obey（服从） the politically elected government. If they don’t trust [them]. They can even create any story and sack the government. If you can see how they dissolve the PPP [People’s Power Party]. The Constitutional Court hear the testimony in the morning and hand out the verdict in the afternoon. This is the first court in the whole world that is so efficient.

What can Thailand do? What is the long-term solution to this political instability?

Reconciliation must be there. If you cannot reconcile the difference between the elite that stay behind the scene and the right of the people, that’s going to be forever chaos. It’s time to compromise, to allow more democracy. Those who are stay behind the scenes must hand off and observe the law.

In terms of reconciliation, what role can you play? Are you part of the solution? Some people think that you’re the problem.

No. You have to start with who started it first. I won the election landslide. Did I create the problem? I went by democratic principle. I went by the constitution. And I won the election. After I won, why did they create the yellow [shirts]（黄衫军）? To try to instigate（鼓动） for those affected by my policy. For example the underground lottery operators. The drug traffickers（毒枭） and the military who lost the power. They come together. Sondhi [Limthongkul] is the one who ask everything from the government, try to blackmail（勒索） the government. Then the so-called elite come in and the Democrats help them by sending their supporters to join. The military used that as an excuse to create a coup.

What’s your relationship with the red shirts?

They are my supporters. Every time they get together they ask me to say some words. So I give them moral support. That’s all. Some are my ex-MPs.

Do you give financial support to the red shirts?

I don’t have much money now. My assets have been frozen…You know how the red shirts come? They come by themselves they don’t have much money. They collect money from each other, they come and help themselves, bring sticky rice and papaya salad. They think that I’ve done a lot for them. Now is the time for them to help bring me back and restore justice for me. That’s the concept.

You must give them something.

No. I don’t have much money. Our assets have been frozen in Thailand for two years.

How much money are you worth?

The whole family? We don’t have that much cash. It’s hard to say. [Pause] About 200 million pounds. That’s the cash before we sell the company. In 1994, just before I became foreign affairs minister, Forbes [magazine] estimate me at $2 billion.

Surely you’re worth more now? Lets say you get back your assets.

If I was in business, I would be worth more. Because I enter politics, I stopped doing business. Now, if I were doing business outside Thailand, my worth would increase more quickly.

Are you doing business outside Thailand?

Yes. I do gold mining in Uganda. I start to get a licence. We’re not [doing] direct investment in production. We do exploration company. We set up company there. We have offshore company here for oil and gas.

How effective is the red-shirt movement in Thailand at making a political impact?

They will never give up. Someone said they have no money, will give up. No, will never give up because their hearts is there. They’re very, very disappointed at what’s happening. The more they squish me, the more the red shirts will come out.

But given where power lies in Thailand, can this really make a difference?

I think they will keep bringing truth to the world, to the public. If the world listen to them, it will understand what’s going on. They will sympathise that the majority of people in Thailand, especially those who struggle in life, have been bullied. They bully me, they indirectly bully them because for the first time in their life they’ve been taken care of and helped, they see the light at the end of the tunnel for their life and their children. So they start to see that…

You cannot solve these problems without reconciliation. Why don’t you negotiate, find a solution? You act as if you can squeeze the red shirts, that one day they will get tired of coming out. I don’t believe that. You see elders, middle-aged and young generation. They will not give up.

There is speculation in Bangkok that you are having negotiations with this elite that would allow you to come back and play a different role in society.

I probably cannot say anything. For sake of reconciliation and for people of Thailand I’m ready to help and bring reconciliation. I’m ready to talk to my supporters when the real justice and real democracy come back to Thailand. But if you want to talk to red shirts to stop, but justice and democracy isn’t there, I can’t do it.

It’s difficult to see how you can reconcile and who will guarantee this deal.

In Thailand, overnight it can become like this [snaps fingers]. Just overnight, like in 1992. That is Thailand. Even this, a mess for years, it can become overnight…We have to clap hands with two hands at the same time. It seems difficult but I don’t think it’s difficult.

And reconciliation would mean you moving back to Thailand. To do what?

Definitely. Well, I don’t have to do anything. If I were not to go back to politics, I’m very happy. I have no obligation. But now, the people need me. If someone can help me, say I don’t have to go back to politics, can be international businessman, I’ll be very happy.

Some Thais tell me that if you come back there will be a civil war.

I don’t think so. If the so-called elites hand off and agree with me to let democracy run its course, then there shouldn’t be anything. I don’t think there are too many hard-core yellow shirts, if not being supported by Democrats and by military, and the reason they were supported by military is because the so-called elite instructed them.

So what’s the incentive then for this elite to allow you back and do this deal? They have the upper hand.

Are you sure that they can have the upper hand forever? Time is on my side. I’m 60 and still energetic. But I prefer to live my life peacefully. I don’t have to go into politics if I don’t need to because actually I adjust myself very well outside Thailand.

What happened in April during Songkran created a negative international image of the red shirts. People saw on TV what happened. Do you feel responsible for what happened?

I feel responsible because many people came out. But I didn’t ask them to stage any kind of violence. They’ve been instigated and mistaken for government-sponsored militia. Look at where it started in Pattaya. When red shirts went to present a letter to leaders who attend the meeting. Simply that. But they’ve been infiltrated by [pro-government] blue shirts. The blue shirts hit red shirts and used stones. The next day they shoot at the taxis…

Everything was a plot by the government to announce the royal decree. And then [Abhisit] went to military barrack and stayed there. …The red shirts were the victims. Look at what happened in Din Daeng. The military with full battle uniform with M-16s, with live ammunition, they shoot at the people and dragged the bodies away. They take away all the films and cameras. Now we have injured people. You saw how they dragged the ladies. All the evidence is there.

There were also ordinary people who went out in support of you who were involved in violence.

They’ve been instigated. The violence started from the government side.

You were the one who told them to go out there. You called for a revolution. What is a revolution but violence?

Revolution doesn’t have to be violence. The people’s power should uprise and change Thailand back to full democracy. I quoted Mahatma Gandhi. He said that whenever he despaired he looked back in history and said that the victory attained by violence is tantamount to failure since it isn’t lasting, only momentary. He thinks we should use love and truth to win the fight. And that I quoted in my speech all the time.

Here’s what you said on April 11th. “I’d like to invite everyone to join hands and take the opportunity to make a people’s revolution to get true democracy for the people.”

Yes. But before that I quote Mahatma Gandhi. I never like violence myself. Now I do a lot of meditation. I don’t even kill mosquitoes now…. I’ve changed a lot because I’ve had time to observe Buddhism practice.

What’s your idea of a people’s revolution?

The people that come, there are no weapons. We have no weapons. If you look at October 7th, they come with ping-pong bombs and guns. Our red shirts have no weapons. They grab wood from street. They have no guns…

We keep telling the red shirts, no violence. We can win by peaceful means and truth. You have to continue giving truth to people even if they don’t understand now. The yellows just give lies. We have to counter the lies with truth. When the truth is revealed, things will be better. They will understand us better.

Would the red shirts continue without you? You must think sometimes you’ve had enough of fighting.

The red shirts would continue. But many of those who are supporting me would drop out（放弃）.

What is your vision for the role of the monarchy in Thailand? In a modern democracy what role should it play?

Our monarchy is a constitutional monarch. His Majesty has dissociated himself from politics and the daily basis of government. But people who surround the palace try to make the people [they] coordinate with perceive that they represent the monarchy [and] give instructions, which is not good and they should stop doing that. They should allow democracy to work.

When you criticise privy councillors and say they should resign, that is seen as an attack on the king.

It’s straightforward. I attack their improper behaviour and meddling（干预） in politics. The Privy Council（枢密院） image is that they represent the king, but they’re meddling in politics. I want to make it clear. If the Privy Council has to exist, it should not be involved in politics.